Curse

Sausaletus Rex · Mar 02, 2005, 09:56 PM // 21:56

I'm not groaning. Maybe now Chuckles and Dayala will take their newly founded mutual admiration society outside.

The problem wth using Ether Lord to deny someone their energy regeneration once you've dropped them to the zero state is that it's not worth much. You've denied them their energy, you've won. Slapping them with degeneration at that point is a "win more" move. It's not helping you get to the win point, it's helping you stay there. It's better to concentrate on getting to that win state because it's pretty darn hard to get to.

Okay, let's say you've got a Ranger/Mesmer. You're running Debilitating Shot to hammer away at someone's energy and you decide to take Ether Lord, too, to deny them their regeneration. You drop them to 0 and then you tag them with Lord. Nice. Why couldn't you just keep firing Debilitating Shot at them? Wasn't it working before? It'll rob them the fruits of their regen out of the zero state and a lot more effectively and efficiently than Ether Lord will, won't it? Why waste a slot on a skill that's not adding that much when you only have so few?

Even if your target is getting BiPed or running Ether Prodigy that's only a regeneration of 6 or 7, at best, that's around 2 energy every second. Ether Lord will deny 1 energy every second. Debilitating Shot will deny about 3, depending on the bow you use. You won't be able to out-regen that Deb Shot. It's a lot bigger a hammer to energy than Ether Lord and it cost a lot less, can be used a lot more frequently, and on and on...

Halfy · Mar 02, 2005, 10:08 PM // 22:08

I see your point. I merely was thinking of something to keep them from attaining 5 energy skills which they could activate if I was hammering with debilitaing shot. For 9 seconds my energy would be growing while theirs is not (unless they happen to be using what you mentioned). I think that safety net is the whole point of this skill, useless or not. I am not sure what other skills offer this protection, where you could be right next to any foe and not worry about what they will do for a period of time (except perhaps signet rings or other allies but I wanted to keep it simple).

Since there is no skill I know of that says "target cannot regain energy for * seconds" this would be the closest to it. I agree that this needs to be tweaked a little as well.

btw you guessed my profession! how astute! Debil is in the build, so we must be on some sort of the same level.

Mar 03, 2005, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Halfy on paper it looks nice for Ether Lord+MW. Theres just a slight problem

Mind Wrack triggers on 0, but does not trigger again until the target's energy goes up and gets dropped back to 0. So trying to Ether Lord+MW a target wont do anything, and even if it could you only have 10 seconds to work with.

Halfy · Mar 03, 2005, 06:06 AM // 06:06

That is interesting. The skill text is obviously misleading for it reads like this:

Quote:

For 20 seconds, if target foe's Energy is zero, that foe takes 20-94 damage and Mind Wrack ends.

So by this definition, the skill would activate regardless. But if you have tried it out I would take gameplay over text.

Ensign · Mar 03, 2005, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Never trust skill descriptions. They lie.

Peace,
-CxE

Barkam · Mar 03, 2005, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Okay, let's say you've got a Ranger/Mesmer. You're running Debilitating Shot to hammer away at someone's energy and you decide to take Ether Lord, too, to deny them their regeneration. You drop them to 0 and then you tag them with Lord. Nice. Why couldn't you just keep firing Debilitating Shot at them? Wasn't it working before? It'll rob them the fruits of their regen out of the zero state and a lot more effectively and efficiently than Ether Lord will, won't it? Why waste a slot on a skill that's not adding that much when you only have so few?

A very good strategy in keeping one caster close to 0 with a skill like Malaise or Ether Lord. You can proceed in harassing a 2nd caster with your debilitating shot. With that strategy you can harass two casters at the same time.

Shrapnel_Magnet · Mar 03, 2005, 08:20 AM // 08:20

This would work, except that Ether Lord takes ALL of your energy, doesn't it? So you couldn't shoot Debilitating shot for a little while, therefore, unable to shut down another caster.

Barkam · Mar 03, 2005, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Aye, but the point Rex was trying to get across is that using a skill that will keep a caster close to 0 is not a very good strategy when you can just keep using Debilitating Shot on the mentioned target. I disagree with him and that's why I posted the above post. The specific skill that you actually use to give your enemy energy degeneration is trivial.

Freyas · Mar 03, 2005, 11:04 AM // 11:04

I think the biggest problem with Ether Lord is that it's greatest effect can be achieved much more easily and much better by Malaise. The only reason I can see to use Ether Lord is if you're shutting down an enemy with energy denial skills, and need to keep them from regenerating enough to use any of their skills. However, you can get pretty much the exact same effect from Malaise, without the stupid "Lose all your energy" penalty, for a much longer duration. You do stop an extra pip with Ether Lord, but really- that's 1 energy every 3 seconds difference.... save yourself the energy up front and use it for something more worthwhile.

The only time I would use Ether Lord is if I was running an energy denial build that did not have Necromancer as my secondary, and needed my elite for something other than Panic. Even then, I think I could find skills I'd prefer to take along.

Halfy · Mar 03, 2005, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Hmm. I was just looking at Malaise 29 sec max duration is nice. But with energy degen of -2 most characters are gaining energy (albiet slowly). I am not sure I like the health degen of that skill but thats give and take. Those people could potentially fire off 5 energy skills still.

My point with the -3 degen is that is should keep most characters from gaining energy at all, so their energy bar effectively stopped. If you ran this with a companion who had blood is power, it would work very well to keep any caster shut down and debilitating shot could harass another caster. All good ideas, I agree the skill is not the greatest, but I still think it has its uses.

Sausaletus Rex · Mar 03, 2005, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by halfy

btw you guessed my profession! how astute! Debil is in the build, so we must be on some sort of the same level.

[insert Mentat the Mind-taker noise....here]

Quote:

Originally Posted by halfy

My point with the -3 degen is that is should keep most characters from gaining energy at all, so their energy bar effectively stopped. If you ran this with a companion who had blood is power, it would work very well to keep any caster shut down and debilitating shot could harass another caster. All good ideas, I agree the skill is not the greatest, but I still think it has its uses.

Debilitating Shot has about a 5 second recharge now, assuming you're not monkying with it in any way, that means with the average bow you can slam a target with it about once every 7 seconds, some bows will be quicker, some bows will be slower, but that's a good estimate of the recycle time.

During that time your opponent will have, obviously, 7 seconds to regenerate. With 3 pips, that's 7 energy. With 4 pips that's just over 9. With 2 that's 5. And so on. So, yes, they can cast the very least expensive skills that they have, the 5 or 0 energy skills, but they'll need to be very quick about it. For the 4 pip characters they won't have 5 energy until they wait about 4 seconds, that gives them 3 seconds to start casting their 5 energy skill. That's not a lot of time. 3 pip characters will take 5 seconds. 2 pip characters the full 7.

So, Malaise will work very well there to prevent any of them from regenerating quickly enough (And 2 pips of health degen is 4 health per second, ouch, that's really going to disuade me from using it...) but even without draining any energy you're in a very good spot as they won't have a lot of opportunity to use anything of any worth.

Pyxis · Mar 03, 2005, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Is there any movement by Alphas to actually balance these things out rather than categorize them as junky spells?
I see everyone seems to be in agreement that a particular spell is unbalanced or useless, to the point that you would say someone using that spell is stupid. If that is so, why isn't the spell being changed? Isn't that what Alphas are supposed to be helping Arena Net do? Instead it seems all this time is being spent learning what spells to use and what ones to avoid rather than making the game better by trying to make all spells useful under the right circumstances. Is Anet ignoring you guys and you are actually trying to get these changed, or are all the alphas just using that time to learn the strengths and weaknesses of the game as it currently stands so they will have a bigger advantage at release? Maybe the NDA keeps you from answering that question, I don't know.

Also, why isn't that Mind Wrack information publicly available? Forcing someone to hit zero vs keeping them at zero to use the spell is a huge difference. What is the point of people who are not alphas even trying to put a build together when the descriptions are so far off.

And why is running with skills from a single class a disadvantage?
Why is Me/Ne or Ne/Me a bad class selection?

I don't want the actual answers to those 2 questions above. I want to know why the game is in such a state where this is true, and thousands of new customers can end up creating such characters upon release, only to later find out they are considered stupid by "those in the know". From the outside looking in, it really appears there are a lot of people more concerned with knowing where strengths and weaknesses stand within the game, rather than trying to balance out the classes so everyone can run an effective build regardless of their class selections.

Halfy · Mar 03, 2005, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Since I am neither an Alpha or "in the know" I can only make one point about junky spells. This game has been described as inspired by Magic the Gathering on numerous occassions by the ArenaNet folks. Using that analogy, there were many 'junky cards' that came out at various times in that game. However, as luck would have it, in some expansion a new set of cards would suddenly trigger the usefullness of previously 'annoying and useless' cards. Perhaps some of these skills will have the same fate, who knows? Maybe there is no hope for them? Perhaps the real challenge and fun is using them and still whooping your enemy. Thats mud in the eye for you. lol

Ensign · Mar 04, 2005, 12:10 AM // 00:10

I'm not an alpha, which perhaps lets me answer these questions more honestly than a tester could.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyxis

Is there any movement by Alphas to actually balance these things out rather than categorize them as junky spells?

The focus of skill balancing starts at the top. They're primarily looking at knocking off the overpowered skills, the broken ones that degenerate the game into single strategies trying to win a mirror. Something like Debilitating Shot being overpowered and showing up in every build is a much bigger deal than Ether Lord being unplayable. Or even Unnatural Signet - sure, everyone knows the skill is unplayable, but that just means that it has zero impact. It might as well just not exist. Thus it doesn't jump out as a 'fix me' target, and when there's a whole lot of balancing that needs to be done it just gets pushed into a corner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyxis

I see everyone seems to be in agreement that a particular spell is unbalanced or useless, to the point that you would say someone using that spell is stupid. If that is so, why isn't the spell being changed?

Beyond the reasons above, even amongst the useless skills there's a heirarchy. Something like Ether Lord may be awful, but the entire Beastmastery / pet mechanic is awful. Fixing up the large issues like Beastmastery is a much higher priority than tweaking individual skills. There are thematic problems that need to be addressed, and when the developers can focus on underpowered skills the big issues get tackled first.

The other issue is that, bluntly, there are stupid alpha testers. Remember that testers are culled from the various fansites and thus are fairly representative of the fan base - some are knowledgable and understand the game very well, while others don't have the slightest clue about game balance - and both are extremely vocal about their opinions. I guarantee you that if the topic ever came up for debate in the test there would be some very vocal supporters of Ether Lord. Having to sort through all of that dreck makes figuring out what's going on all the more difficult.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyxis

Isn't that what Alphas are supposed to be helping Arena Net do?

Ostensibly, sure, that's what they're supposed to be doing, but:

1) There's no requirement that one actually helps beyond minimal participation. Some players are trying to explore the limits of the game and find something broken - others are more than content to just bring their PvE characters to every all call. I can tell you that the latter group is far larger than the former group.

2) Not everyone can actually help, even if they wanted to. Remember that while the test itself is about, you know, testing the game, the selection process is a community relations tool. Sure, everyone invited can play the game and likely report obvious bugs, but what percentage of the community would you really trust when it comes to balance issues?

couple that with:

3) The test is a graveyard outside of all calls. There's no one in the tombs outside of the few specified hours - sometimes people even have trouble getting enough people around to play in the arena. Testers spend a lot of time running around with a team of henchies because that's all that's available.

So you have the pairing of a deserted test and not a whole lot of people you can trust to actually discuss balance. Couple that with a view that wants empirical data for changes and not just theory, and you have a recipe for slow change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyxis

Also, why isn't that Mind Wrack information publicly available?

Because a lot of testers don't know, and even if they did know they couldn't tell us since even mentioning current skill descriptions is against the rules. The wordings are misleading, and unless a given tester has specifically tested a skill, they know about as much about how it works as we do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyxis

I want to know why the game is in such a state where this is true, and thousands of new customers can end up creating such characters upon release, only to later find out they are considered stupid by "those in the know".

Well, the two questions you didn't want answers to are answered the way they are for strategical reasons, not balance reasons. You don't use a single class character because all you're doing is excluding options - you don't use a Mesmer/Necro because it isn't as strategically deep as other options. That doesn't mean they're unplayable, they just aren't going to be competitive at the highest levels. I'm sure every class combination can be effective in PvE or whatever, even as things currently stand.

Peace,
-CxE

Mar 04, 2005, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Pyxis most people are trying to get the game to a state where every class combination can be seen as useful. But no matter what, not every skill will be good. Some skills will always be bad and some will just be too good. Me/Ne and Ne/Me arent "bad", I think one of them is ok in PvP and the other has its day in PvE. It's just that when trying to do certain things some people really dont want them in their builds.

Freyas · Mar 04, 2005, 12:40 AM // 00:40

There are lots of changes that take place due to Alpha Feedback- but as it was pointed out, the focus is currently more on balancing overpowered skills or general problems. Rangers used to be rather underpowered- after some changes last month, they're quite useful now, so long as you don't look at the beast mastery line. I'm pretty sure that pets and their skills will see some changes before release, too.

A lot of the balancing issues are more to the order of general weaknesses and overpowered skills. It used to be possible to get about 3x your energy back when using an unattributed power drain.... that's been changed. There are lots of changes that take place in skill balancing- some I agree with, some I don't, but they're all intended to eventually bring all skills into a semblance of balance. Some skills will be better in PvE than PvP, some will be worse- for instance, disease is generally pretty safe to play with in PvE, as it only spreads among the same race... if you plague a Charr, it's not going to spread to your team. In PvP, if you plague someone on their team, you can expect it to be on pretty much every character in the match within a few seconds- including yourself and your teammates.

As for explaining what each skill does when they have inaccurate descriptions, that can be pretty hard. There's over 450 skills in the game, and for someone to know exactly how something works, like Mind Wrack, they have to have used that skill. With the sheer number of skills in the game, it's hard to get experience with each of them- heck, I've been a tester since October, and I'd only say I'm really knowlegeable enough in 2-3 professions to give good feedback on skill balance for those professions. When I first got into the alpha, I had serious problems with Backfire- I thought it was overpowered at the time. It's not really, once you're experienced in playing(of course it was nerfed some- it used to have no recharge), but if you don't have a good knowledge of the game and the professions, balance feedback you can give is not very helpful/reliable.

I'm sure that the underpowered skills will get looked at as well, but having a skill underpowered makes far less of a difference in the game than having an overpowered skill. The underpowered skill just won't get used, while overpowered skills will be used and abused until out of frustration, the devs nerf it into insensibility, just like what happens often in other games.

Pyxis · Mar 04, 2005, 06:16 AM // 06:16

I would like to thank each of you for your replies. Everything said really makes sense. Also that is a great point about MTG Halfy, I hadn't thought of it, mainly because there are so few spells compared to Magic cards, but the same theory holds true. Also thank you very much for the point by point Charles, that cleared up pretty much everything I asked.

Ensign · Mar 04, 2005, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freyas

I'm sure that the underpowered skills will get looked at as well, but having a skill underpowered makes far less of a difference in the game than having an overpowered skill.

This is true for proactive skills - underpowered threats just don't get run - but the opposite is true for reactive skills. If your reactive skills - your counters, your removal, your 'safety valves' are underpowered, that's a huge deal because the appropriate threats are suddenly overpowered. You don't end up with the old threat / answer mold, where the answers increase in prevalence with the threats - instead you just end up in a feedback loop where the threats continue to become more and more common.

This isn't just theoretical. Guild Wars has a serious lack of enchantment and hex removal, and because of it those two skill types are running rampant. Is it because enchantments and hexes are overpowered? No. It's because there are zero viable solutions to those two skill types, and they dominate the game because of it. You can't choose to fight them, because that option isn't available - your only option is to use them yourself.

The solution to this, of course, is a wide variety of strong, diverse removal options. Funny how the solution to some problems is buffs, not nerfs, eh?

Peace,
-CxE

Shrapnel_Magnet · Mar 04, 2005, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Ensign, are you saying that you or anyone could not come up with an effective Anti-Hex or Anti-Enchantment build? I'm just curious because the skills are there, but they seem to be unweildy... therefore they might need an entire build dedicated to it. Is this an option, in your opinion (or anyone's)? Or would it be an exercise in futility? Or would it simply waste a player's spot on a team that could be better replaced with another Anti-Monk build or whatever?

Ensign · Mar 04, 2005, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrapnel_Magnet

Ensign, are you saying that you or anyone could not come up with an effective Anti-Hex or Anti-Enchantment build?

Oh, certainly I could. I'd use Nature's Renewal and center my entire build around that. As far as I can tell that is the only viable option at the moment, and Nature's Renewal puts a pretty big constraint on the kinds of builds you can run yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrapnel_Magnet

I'm just curious because the skills are there, but they seem to be unweildy...

Let me put it this way.

You have the choice between using the unwieldly answers that are there, and the very easy to wield, much stronger skills that also exist, which do you choose?

I'm saying that the skills most certainly are not there. Just because a skill says it removes an enchantment does not mean it is actually a solution to enchantments. If I cast a 5 energy, 1 second cast, 10 second recycle enchantment, and the best you can do is a 10 energy, 2 second cast, 20 second recycle 'answer', have you actually countered my enchantment? Or am I just draining your energy, locking out your skill bar, wasting your time, and building up an advantage in the process?

If I cast an enchantment, that puts me at an advantage. If you cast enchantment removal, and this is the key part, *I'm still at an advantage*. Given that enchantment removal is conditional and enchantments are not, the *only* sane solution is to not bother with enchantment removal and just run enchantments. If you do so, we both cast our enchantments, are are strategically even - better off than you'd be if you cast removal!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrapnel_Magnet

Is this an option, in your opinion (or anyone's)? Or would it be an exercise in futility? Or would it simply waste a player's spot on a team that could be better replaced with another Anti-Monk build or whatever?

Take a character on a team who is dedicated to anti-enchantment or anti-hex. Now replace that character with one dedicated to enchantments or hexes. The second team, with the replacement, will win more often. You're fighting fire with fire, because you aren't going to put out a fire with the few drops of water available. You need a hose, and there just isn't one.

Except the aformentioned Nature's Renewal. Which, at this rate, I expect to get nerfed into uselessness.

Peace,
-CxE